Episode 7
Surrogacy, Friendship, and the Power of Two with Lisa Messenger & Sarah Megginson
This week, Cass is joined by Lisa Messenger and Sarah Megginson, two colleagues and friends whose lives were changed forever when Sarah offered to be a gestational surrogate for Lisa. In this episode, we discuss Lisa's gruelling six-years and 16 rounds of IVF, and the significant financial, physical, and emotional toll of infertility. The episode delves into the legal and emotional complexities of surrogacy in Australia, the vital role of hope and resilience, and the deepening of Lisa and Sarah's friendship through this profound experience. Both women stress the importance of asking for help, the power of connection, and the broader applicability of their story to anyone facing adversity.
Connect with Sarah & Lisa:
The Power of Two book at Booktopia
www.instagram.com/lisamessenger
www.instagram.com/sarahmegginsonmoney
Connect with Cass:
www.instagram.com/crappytohappypod
www.tiktok.com/crappytohappypod
Join the free 7-day Happiness Challenge:
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:This is Crafty to happy and.
Speaker A:I am your host, Cass Dunn.
Speaker B:I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and.
Speaker A:Mindfulness meditation teacher and of course, author of the Crappy to Happy books.
Speaker A:In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have.
Speaker B:Something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy.
Speaker C:Foreign.
Speaker A:So excited to share an extraordinary story of friendship, resilience and the life changing power of generosity.
Speaker A:Joining me are two incredible women.
Speaker A:Lisa messenger is a global pioneer in entrepreneurship and publishing, and Sarah Meganson, a leading voice in financial journalism and personal finance.
Speaker A:You may know Lisa as the founder and CEO of the Messenger Group, creator of Collective Hub.
Speaker A:She's the author of over 40 books.
Speaker A:She has many, many more accolades aids to her name.
Speaker A:Sarah has spent two decades empowering readers through her work as a lifestyle journalist, editor, and financial literacy advocate.
Speaker A:Their story begins over a decade ago as colleagues and collaborators.
Speaker A:But their friendship deepened when Sarah made the extraordinary offer to be Lisa's surrogate after Lisa's long and heartbreaking journey with infertility.
Speaker A:Together they have navigated this deeply personal and inspiring experience, resulting in the birth of Hugo and a bond that makes them chosen family.
Speaker A:I want to say up front that while this is a story of fertility and surrogacy, it is actually about so much more than that.
Speaker A:There is a lesson here.
Speaker A:Messages here for anybody listening who may be experiencing challenge or adversity.
Speaker A:So I would really encourage you to take a listen.
Speaker A:It is an amazing story.
Speaker A:Here is my conversation with Sarah and Lisa.
Speaker B:Lisa and Sarah, welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast.
Speaker D:I love that name.
Speaker D:Such a great name for a podcast.
Speaker D:So happy to be here, isn't it?
Speaker C:I feel like it's just so many people's lives, isn't it?
Speaker C:How do we turn it from crappy to happy?
Speaker C:I love it.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:It's all encompassing.
Speaker B:All encompassing.
Speaker B:That's what I love about it.
Speaker B:You can fit everything into the crappy to happy theme.
Speaker B:Speaking of which, your story, the two of you, it's incredible.
Speaker B:I devoured your book.
Speaker B:Congratulations.
Speaker B:So well done.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker B:And it has such a happy ending.
Speaker B:But the show is called Crappy to Happy, so let's briefly touch on the crappy, if that's okay.
Speaker C:Luckily, the happy outweighs the crappy, but there was certainly a lot of crappy.
Speaker C:Oh, speaking of, here is Happy right now.
Speaker B:Oh, can we say, can we meet Happy?
Speaker B:Where's little Happy Hugo?
Speaker C:He's gone with daddy.
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker B:So Lisa, you To get your beautiful Hugo, you spent eight years, as I understand it, 18 rounds of IVF and spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars pursuing various fertility options.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:That is quite a journey.
Speaker C:What.
Speaker B:What was the impact on your physical and mental health of that process?
Speaker B:And how did you keep going?
Speaker B:More to the point, what kept you going?
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:That is a big question.
Speaker C:So I would say physical, mental, and financial.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So let's go through those quickly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, it was a lot.
Speaker C:It was a lot, a lot.
Speaker C:And I have to be really careful not to.
Speaker C:I'm good at compartmentalizing and desensitizing and detaching from the story.
Speaker C:And I think it's.
Speaker C:Sarah and I talk about this a lot.
Speaker C:I'm like, you know, we're getting into that.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah, this just happened.
Speaker C:But actually, for anyone who is going through it, you know, I feel you.
Speaker C:I was you.
Speaker C:Hugo's determined to come onto this pod.
Speaker B:Him, little sliding, the joy of home recording.
Speaker C:You know what?
Speaker C:It's just real life.
Speaker B:It's real life.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:I wouldn't have it any other way because as we said, he did take so long to get hit.
Speaker C:But I think for anyone listening, I'll talk about those three components and then how I kept going.
Speaker C:So the physicality of it is.
Speaker C:Is a lot and the emotional side of it is a lot.
Speaker C:So I mean, the very quick Cliff Notes that this is why we've written a book, really to shine the light and really help people understand it all.
Speaker C:But my Cliff Notes are.
Speaker C: Got pregnant in: Speaker C:Had a miscarriage.
Speaker C:We shortly broke up.
Speaker C:Thereafter, I went to Bali to have a good cry.
Speaker C:But on my birthday, I.
Speaker C:I decided to do something for someone else.
Speaker C:And I put it out on Facebook at the time and said, what shall I do?
Speaker C:And people said, oh, go to the Jodi O'Shea Orphanage.
Speaker C:So I looked on their website, looked at all the items they needed for the orphanage, and I went and spent this beautiful day with all these children and fell in love with one little six month old baby, Gracie, and proceeded to spend the next three days there.
Speaker C:And because I've always.
Speaker C:I've had my own businesses for 23 years.
Speaker C:And a lot of what I do is I'm an author and I've chosen to turn, you know, adversity into positivity and share the lessons learned.
Speaker C:So I was like, right, I could do this.
Speaker C:I'm gonna adopt this little baby.
Speaker C:And so probably for the next six months, I was determined.
Speaker C:So I went through, like, you know, trying to do this cross border adoption and there was just so much red tape and bureaucracy and I would have had to move to finally for like two years that it was really complex.
Speaker C:So that wasn't to be, sadly.
Speaker C:And that sort of.
Speaker C:The miscarriage broke my heart.
Speaker C:Then that broke my heart in a different way.
Speaker C:But then, and this is kind of answering your.
Speaker C:How did you keep going?
Speaker C:I think in life when there's like hope and possibility and someone presents another opportunity or potential answer, that's kind of what keeps us going often.
Speaker C:So my next one was a friend of mine had become pregnant.
Speaker C:She was also single as I was then with donor sperm.
Speaker C:So I was like, right, okay, I'm gonna do this.
Speaker C:And so I just really tried everything.
Speaker C:And I then went down the route of, well, when you go after donor sperm, it's not that simple.
Speaker C:I firstly needed to, you know, sign up for IVF to have my own eggs harvested.
Speaker C:And then I had to, you know, go shopping online for a baby daddy and do all of that.
Speaker C:And then, you know, we had to make embryos and then ensure that there were enough viable embryos to do the implantation.
Speaker C:So I went through two rounds of that with two different men because man A wasn't available by the time I had to do man B.
Speaker C:So I did that and, and neither of those worked, sadly.
Speaker C:And then shortly after I met my now partner, sleep even.
Speaker C:And I mean, this is why it's.
Speaker C:It's a long story, but I think it's important for you to understand what keeps you going and, you know, all of the pieces.
Speaker C:Anyway, we tried naturally.
Speaker C:We then proceeded to do a further 14 rounds of IVF and then say it came into the picture, but there's so much to unpack.
Speaker B:I know, and it's all in the book.
Speaker C:And I didn't really answer your question about the emotional, physical, financial and the mindset piece, but let's just keep going and that will come up, I'm sure, as we chat.
Speaker B:I just wanted to throw in there with my psychology hat on as I was reading.
Speaker B:This is exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker B:Lisa, I don't know if you've ever heard of hope theory and when I did my coaching psychology masters, you know, 20 years ago, that was one of the things that we learned was about hope theory and this concept that hope is kind of foundational to, to human wellbeing and that what it requires is a clear goal, a pathway and some sense of agency.
Speaker B:And if, if one pathway is blocked, if you can find another pathway, you can Remain hopeful and all.
Speaker B:I through your whole story, and I was thinking throughout your business journey as well, it seems that it's just this constantly finding another pathway, if one pathway gets blocked, to find another pathway.
Speaker B:But when there's no more pathways or you don't feel a sense of agency, that's when people become hopeless, and that's when people fall into despair.
Speaker B:I thought it was just useful to share that for listeners, too, because it's an interesting concept.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker C:And I think you've nailed it.
Speaker C:And I'm aware that I won't say it to speak as well, but on that, just leaning into the mindset piece, I think that absolutely resonates with me.
Speaker C:I think for years, you know, in business, that's what I've done just all the time.
Speaker C:And then, you know, also in crisis management and a variety of other things, I've always just thought, okay, if that door is closed, closed, well, what's something else?
Speaker C:And I think it is just that little glimmer of hope and possibility that kept me going.
Speaker C:And I'd like to think that, you know, now that you've shared the hope theory, I hope that people are listening and also know, you know, when.
Speaker C:When is your edge?
Speaker C:When is enough for you?
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:Sometimes I think, my God, I can't believe I went that long.
Speaker C:But I did, and now I have this beautiful baby.
Speaker B:And the one other thing I wanted to ask you about, Lisa, before we get to the happy, is you've also been really open about the fact that you had mental health struggles when you were younger.
Speaker B:You gave up drinking.
Speaker B:Congratulations.
Speaker B:20 years sober, which is an amazing achievement.
Speaker B:And that this, through this process, there came a point where you were really pushed to your edge in a really scary way.
Speaker B:And I wanted to ask you, I guess from your experience, is there enough mental health support available for people going through fertility treatment?
Speaker B:And also from the personal perspective, what.
Speaker B:What do you think men and women need to have in place in terms of, like, their own checking that they are actually kind of fit for the process and have enough scaffolding place to support them through the process?
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:That is such a good and important question and one that we've not been asked yet.
Speaker C:And I think it's absolutely imperative, and I can only speak from my experience, but also witnessing a lot of what's going on around me.
Speaker C:So what Cass is referring to is, yeah, during my 20s, I was often suicidal and sort of had no semblance of who I was and leading life according to other People's expectations and.
Speaker C:And then, you know, was using alcohol as a crutch and self sabotaging and keeping myself small, small, and put down the drink.
Speaker C:And then the work started, really.
Speaker C:And so I've been on that, you know, I guess, 20 year journey now, longer even, of really sort of self development.
Speaker C:So even with all of those tools and skill sets and, you know, things in my toolkit, I still reached a very, very, very dark and low point.
Speaker C:And I think that's a combination of things.
Speaker C:I think it's the drugs that I was putting into my body.
Speaker C:I mean, I've had a sober body in every way, shape and form for over 20 years now.
Speaker C:And, you know, I'm just pumping myself full of all sorts of hormones and things.
Speaker C:And so.
Speaker C:And then also, you know, hearing 16 times, oh, you're not pregnant this time, like, that takes a toll.
Speaker C:And also, I hadn't spoken publicly at all, and I'm a open book.
Speaker C:I've written 40 or so, so I literally use my life kind of as.
Speaker C:As a human guinea pig, but I didn't talk about this at all.
Speaker C:So all of that really started to have a massive effect now.
Speaker C:I mean, I feel like we could speak for hours on this, and I don't want to take up the whole podcast, but there was.
Speaker C:I think there's a lot of.
Speaker C:A lot of humanizing and a lot of empathy that needs to be added to the fertility industry.
Speaker C:I feel like a lot of it is very clinical and rote, and there's a lot of bureaucracy and red tape and a lot of money exchanging hands.
Speaker C:And I think oftentimes in my experience, there wasn't a lot of care given.
Speaker C:And I actually did tell my fertility clinic, I'm actually suffering quite severely.
Speaker C:Like, it didn't affect me on a lot of the rounds, but there are a couple where I actually had suicidal ideations again and really started feeling very, very low.
Speaker C:Luckily for me, I sort of have been around the traps and explored myself enough that I kind of went, okay, I feel like that's drugs and it's something that's in my system.
Speaker C:Like, I was able to kind of be the watcher watching in and recognize that actually the duck thoughts, I think, were being induced by something kind of that wasn't me.
Speaker C:It felt like a chemical thing, which was fortunate that I've done the work.
Speaker C:But I mentioned that to the clinic and they were like, oh, of course you're upset.
Speaker C:You know, you had.
Speaker C:You didn't get pregnant this time.
Speaker C:And I was like, nah, There is something much bigger at play.
Speaker C:And I did talk a lot about dosages and things.
Speaker C:And so, yeah, I do feel that there's.
Speaker C:There is some real concern out there.
Speaker C:And I do feel like people need to equip themselves, you know, mentally to go on this journey.
Speaker C:Another thing is, and I'm sorry I'm taking up so much time here, you don't have to apologize, but I also feel like one of the things that I have learned over the years that helps my mindset is exercise.
Speaker C:So the physical side of things really helps with my mental health.
Speaker C:But part of what happens, certainly the protocols that I was advised of when you do an implantation, so that's, you know, putting the embryo into me, which I did 16 times.
Speaker C:I was told not to exercise or get my heart rate up for two weeks after that.
Speaker C:So that's in total, 32 weeks of not being able to exercise, which for the most part is really a big tool that I've used over the years to kind of, you know, help me with my mental health.
Speaker C:And so I found that very difficult as well.
Speaker C:I mean, I then lent on meditation and journaling and screaming into the wind, you know, and anything else that I had, but I did really struggle with that.
Speaker C:And one of the other cruel side effects of so many injections is that I looked pregnant.
Speaker C:I looked.
Speaker C:I was very, very bloated.
Speaker C:For the best part of probably six and a half years or something, I looked pregnant.
Speaker C:So there's a whole lot.
Speaker C:And the financial side, I'll just mention quickly because I feel like, you know, I don't take it lightly that we were in a position where we could actually do this.
Speaker C:And I know there are a lot of people who aren't.
Speaker C:And we sold a house and made a lot of sacrifices in order to do it, because my partner, Stephen, said, well, which was so sobering.
Speaker C:If that is what we want, a baby, it doesn't matter if it costs a dollar or a million dollars.
Speaker C:Like, let's put everything on the line.
Speaker C:And we did.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Enough about me.
Speaker B:Sarah, you.
Speaker B:At some point throughout the comment, if you ever need a surrogate, can you tell me what compelled you to make that offer?
Speaker B:And were you really serious?
Speaker D:No.
Speaker D:No, I wasn't.
Speaker D:Like, it wasn't a.
Speaker D:It wasn't something I had thought about or that I'd consciously come to that lunch that day thinking, I'm going to offer this.
Speaker D:It was more just.
Speaker D:We were just catching up on life.
Speaker D:And Lisa said her IVF wasn't going very well, and it just Kind of.
Speaker D:I just threw it out there like, oh, well, if you ever need a surrogate, I'm here.
Speaker D:But we.
Speaker D:I'd actually just discovered that day that Lisa was trying to have a baby.
Speaker D:Before that, she.
Speaker D:She'd kept.
Speaker D:For someone who is quite public about what's going on in her life, she'd actually kept it quite under wraps.
Speaker D:So I was really surprised that she'd been trying for so long and that, you know, it had been quite a private journey.
Speaker D:So I just kind of came out like, oh, well, if you need a surrogate, I'm here.
Speaker D:And it.
Speaker D:And it is, it's one of those things where it was a seed planted.
Speaker D:I think it was at the time.
Speaker D:It was not what Lisa needed or wanted, but it planted a seed there.
Speaker D:So that many years later when she was at that point, we reconnected on it and.
Speaker D:And then that became the seed that became Hugo.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's an interesting point at the time that you threw that comment out there, like you said.
Speaker B:So, Lisa, that was not on your radar at the time.
Speaker B:And you talk in the book about, you know, we all get to a certain point of being open to another option in our own time.
Speaker B:And that wasn't on your radar at the time?
Speaker C:No, it.
Speaker C:It wasn't.
Speaker C:Keep going.
Speaker D:But.
Speaker B:So by the time you went back to Sarah and said, hey, how.
Speaker B:How about that?
Speaker B:Still interested in being a surrogate, like, how much time had passed?
Speaker B:Because that's really.
Speaker B:Things had changed for you, Sarah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You had had surgery, you had said to your doctor, no more babies.
Speaker B:So let's just talk about that.
Speaker B:When she came back, what was your response?
Speaker D:Yeah, it was four years between those two conversations.
Speaker D:So when we first, When I first started out there, Lisa was.
Speaker D:Must have been about a year and a half into it and had done a few rounds.
Speaker D:So then it was another four years later before we reconnected on it.
Speaker D:And again, I asked the same question.
Speaker D:How's the IVF going?
Speaker D:You know, because at first, during that first conversation, Lisa said, I've actually been doing ivf.
Speaker D:And I said, oh, how's it going?
Speaker D:Oh, not so great, actually.
Speaker D:Oh, if you have any surrogate, I'm here.
Speaker D:Then fast forward.
Speaker D:Four years later, over text, we have the same conversation.
Speaker D:How's the IVF going?
Speaker D:Not so great, actually.
Speaker D:Are you still interested in being a surrogate?
Speaker D:And I said, yes, but I.
Speaker D:My situation has had changed in that time.
Speaker D:I'd finished having children myself, I'd had some hernias from my pregnancies, and I'd had pretty extensive surgery to repair my midsection.
Speaker D:And my surgeon at the time said, this is a surgery you have once you finish having kids, because to get pregnant afterwards is quite risky.
Speaker D:You can risk, you know, tearing the.
Speaker D:The mesh and you can risk further hernias and things like that.
Speaker D:So when I went back to Lisa, well, when she came back to me and said, are you still interested?
Speaker D:That was one of the first calls I made after my husband was to call my surgeon and make sure it was viable.
Speaker D:Because the last thing I wanted to do at that point was to give Lisa false hope and say, yes, I'm interested, and then come back and say, oh, this is actually not possible.
Speaker D:So I quickly contacted him, and he was amazing.
Speaker D:He gave me the go ahead.
Speaker D:He said, look, hopefully there'll be no damage, and we do it.
Speaker D:We'll put you back together again if we need to and just make sure you don't have twins.
Speaker D:So that was kind of part of the brief going in.
Speaker D:I was like, we're not.
Speaker D:Not putting two in there, please.
Speaker B:So you went back and said, yes.
Speaker B:Was there any part of you that.
Speaker D:Thought, oh, yeah, many times.
Speaker D:I think at many times, there were many moments where I was like, holy, what am I doing?
Speaker D:Why am I getting.
Speaker D:Why am I getting pregnant?
Speaker D:You know, voluntarily in my 40s?
Speaker D:It kicks your ass.
Speaker D:And also, just like, you know, it's a big thing to jump into.
Speaker D:It's.
Speaker D:It's getting involved in another couple in a really intimate way and hoping that I can do something really positive for them, but also knowing that pregnancies end in miscarriage and they end in sometimes negative outcomes.
Speaker D:And I was just really, really hopeful that surely after six years of trying, because I think that they've been trying for six years by the time I came along.
Speaker D:And I thought, surely after six years, there's some good karma waiting there.
Speaker D:And this is going to be.
Speaker D:This.
Speaker D:This baby is meant to be.
Speaker D:Surely this is going to work.
Speaker C:And it did as.
Speaker B:As it turns out.
Speaker B:So on the face of it, this is such a beautiful story of friendship and this selfless gesture.
Speaker B:It's lovely.
Speaker B:But as you just mentioned, Sarah, like, potentially, it can also be really fraught and complicated.
Speaker B:So how.
Speaker B:Well, let's start with you had to do a contract.
Speaker B:Like, you have to come to some agreement about what are you, what's your obligation, what's your requirement, what's the legality of it?
Speaker B:So let's start with that.
Speaker B:What is the legality of surrogacy in Australia?
Speaker D:Uh, well, we do have A whole chapter about it in the book that breaks it down into full detail because it is quite complicated.
Speaker D:But the.
Speaker D:The bottom line, the CliffsNotes version, is that it's.
Speaker D:You're not allowed to do commercial surrogacy in Australia, so you're not allowed to pay someone or really give them any benefit beyond repaying the costs they incur.
Speaker D:So Lisa and Steven paid for all of my medical expenses and anything that I needed for the pregnancy.
Speaker D:Like, I got gestational diabetes, so all of those medications were covered and all of anything that I like, support garments and things like that, all of that stuff is covered.
Speaker D:But anything that can be perceived as a benefit is not covered.
Speaker D:And that.
Speaker D:That gets complicated.
Speaker D:Like, even when I had my very first meeting with my lawyer and I said, I have had this surgery in my abdomen, I've had my.
Speaker D:My, my abs stitched back together and I've got mesh implanted.
Speaker D:So if after we give birth, if there's any damage there, I would just like that restored back to factory seconds.
Speaker D:And she said, oh, we'd have to see about that.
Speaker D:That might be considered a benefit.
Speaker D:And I was like, how is that considered a benefit when it's not?
Speaker D:I'm not.
Speaker D:I'm not improving.
Speaker D:I'm not getting a boob job while you're in there.
Speaker D:I'm just getting back to what I was, which was, you know, safe and medically sound.
Speaker D:I just want to go back to that.
Speaker D:I don't want to end up worse off afterwards.
Speaker D:I just want to get back to what I was.
Speaker D:And she said, oh, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
Speaker D:But it might be considered a benefit.
Speaker D:And I thought, God, that's like.
Speaker D:In Australia.
Speaker D:They really run it to the letter of the law here.
Speaker D:Um, so, yeah, yeah, you can.
Speaker D:Because there's no commercial industry around it.
Speaker D:It is quite a small industry in Australia.
Speaker D:There's only around 120 surrogacy births in Australia a year.
Speaker D:About another 250 Australian families go overseas for a surrogate where it is commercial and where there's a lot more of a kind of infrastructure around it.
Speaker D:But then it gets very, very expensive.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:What I was surprised by was that, yeah, you drop this contract and you say, this is what you'll do.
Speaker B:And I know that you went back, Sarah, and said, hang on about.
Speaker B:You said, I can't put anything in my body, but I will need to dye my hair.
Speaker B:So you're having all of this back and forth about, like, what.
Speaker B:You're both prepared, you know, what's acceptable at the end of the day though?
Speaker B:The actual handing over of the baby is optional.
Speaker D:Well, yeah, the, the contract is not legally binding, which is wild.
Speaker D:The, the lawyer.
Speaker D:Yeah, the lawy.
Speaker D:You know, it would certainly be taken into consideration if something happened.
Speaker D:And by something happened, I mean if I refused to give the baby to Lisa and Stephen at the hospital, I guess.
Speaker D:And we did hear a few stories where things went pear shaped with surrogates and the intended parents and things happened.
Speaker D:Like the surrogate halfway through the pregnancy said, I don't want you involved from now on until the baby's birth, so you can come and collect the baby from the hospital when it's born.
Speaker D:But between now and then, I don't want to hear from you.
Speaker D:You know, that would have been.
Speaker D:Situations like that would just be so incredibly difficult to deal with.
Speaker D:So there is so much trust that goes into this and the contract is great.
Speaker D:It's very good to get all the intentions down.
Speaker D:But really when you do this with someone, you have an immense amount of trust.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was just going to say Lisa.
Speaker B:So there's obviously like you, it's so important that there be a really strong solid foundation of trust there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, I think the, I'm going to come back to your hope theory because I love that and I like, you know, by the time this all happened I was just like, whatever, yep, dying, like I would.
Speaker C:It's just like I was so, you know, burnt out at the end of my road.
Speaker C:I felt like I'd completely run out of options.
Speaker C:I mean, for someone who's, you know, a great optimist, I was like, I literally feel like I've tried every kind of natural and, you know, medical possibility to really, to bring a baby into the world.
Speaker C:So by the time this like Wednesday, I was like, oh, is it okay if I dye my hair?
Speaker C:I am like, diet.
Speaker D:You can dye the baby's hair when it comes out if you need to.
Speaker C:But you know, I was just so grateful, I think, and I think says, right.
Speaker C:I mean, we're both a bit woo woo and spiritual and I do think the universe finally did smile upon me and say, here you go.
Speaker C:Here is this goddess who just, you know, not only carried my baby, but kind of carried me as a friend, you know, and it was just really, all of it was just the most extraordinary experience and just like it's indescribable sort of having someone who became a very best friend through the journey.
Speaker C:And we were close before, but so intimate and you know, the communication Levels are so deep and we go through so much together.
Speaker C:So, yeah, just indescribable how extraordinary it was.
Speaker C:And also for all of the industry that I really struggled with so many times, we just had an extraordinary team by then.
Speaker C:Like Dr.
Speaker C:Drew Moffrie, who was our obstetrician, was just so fun and amazing and helpful and is still a wonderful friend.
Speaker C:He just came to one of our launches a couple of days ago and I texted him today and you know, he's just, he's part of the family now as well.
Speaker C:So I do feel like despite here's me compartmentalizing, despite all the paperwork and bureaucracy and red tape and craziness that you have to go through.
Speaker C:For me by that point, I kind of just said to Stephen, you deal with all that.
Speaker C:Like, you know, I just want to like enjoy this journey.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And we did for the most part.
Speaker C:I mean, maybe I've forgotten some tricky bits, but I haven't probably chosen to do that.
Speaker C:But yeah, it was, it was for the most part just amazing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:The whole process of going through, for any woman who wants to have a baby, the going through getting pregnant, being pregnant, the amount of pressure to do things right and I can't eat this and I can't get too stressed.
Speaker B:I've.
Speaker B:I had one baby and I know what that was like for myself and you know, the mother guilt.
Speaker B:It starts well before actually being a mother.
Speaker B:Like everything that you do, you feel guilty about.
Speaker B:Sarah, you had three healthy babies, easy pregnancies before you carried Hugo.
Speaker B:How much extra pressure did you feel to be the perfect pregnant woman, given that this was somebody else's baby?
Speaker B:That chalk bringing into the world.
Speaker D:Yeah, I think it was all very self imposed pressure.
Speaker D:Lisa and Steven never put any pressure on me through the pregnancy.
Speaker D:There was never any discussion of like, what are you eating or, you know, what's your diet or anything like that.
Speaker D:They were very hands off, which was amazing because I think that again, could become something that would be a tricky dynamic if you had it with someone.
Speaker D:I remember someone.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker D:Someone along the way said, oh, is it in the contract what you're allowed to eat?
Speaker D:And I was like, don't be ridiculous.
Speaker D:Like, as if I'm going to be, you know, I'm not going to.
Speaker D:I've got three kids and I work.
Speaker D:Like, I'm not going to be having a spirulina smoothie every day if that's what is required.
Speaker D:Like, I just have to get on with my life.
Speaker D:So they never put any pressure on me at all.
Speaker D:But I certainly felt a responsibility.
Speaker D:So there were little things like I went to a wedding at one point and I didn't normally, like when I'd been pregnant before with my kids, I would have had a little sip of champagne at the champagne toaster.
Speaker D:I didn't when I was pregnant with Hugo because I just took every precaution to make sure that, you know, I needed to be able to hand on heart, say that I'd done everything possible to grow him and deliver him safely.
Speaker D:So didn't take any risks and just did my best, kept my eye on the prize, did my best to get him, cook him for as long as possible.
Speaker D:We got to 38 weeks, which was great.
Speaker D:He was a very big baby so I think any more than that could have been problematic.
Speaker D:But yeah, I, I think the sense of responsibility was great and it was self imposed because I just really wanted to be part of their happy ending and not part of any story that was going to bring them any more heartache.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And one of my love languages is cooking.
Speaker C:So I, well, I mean we saw each other every week during the pregnancy so I would, we're, we live an hour and 15 minutes away so I would trundle up the highway just to try and support with home cooked meals or whatever I could.
Speaker C:But it was like, you know, it's just a trust thing and a knowing that says an incredible human and whatever she does is going to be in everyone's best interest.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I was, as I was reading and I was thinking about the potential, like some of the things that you've just mentioned, Sarah, like the potential things that could come up, tricky communication or expectations or whatever.
Speaker B:I was wondering if in some ways having a actual commercial arrangement might be easier.
Speaker B:Like it's very transactional but it's more like, well, this is what I'm paying you for, this is what you're going to do versus, you know, the potential impact on a very close friendship if there are miscommunications or unmet expectations or whatever.
Speaker D:That's actually a really good point.
Speaker D:I've never thought about it like that but.
Speaker D:And no one's ever suggested that, but I think that is a really good point.
Speaker D:I think especially the way we did it was kind of perfect because we're not family.
Speaker D:I do think if we were family there would be all of those different family dynamics at play.
Speaker D:Say we were siblings, you know, it might have been you were always mum's favorite or, or Mum's cooking for you.
Speaker D:Now that you're pregnant, she's not cooking for me or whatever.
Speaker D:Like, you know, we didn't have any of that stuff to deal with.
Speaker D:But I think you're really.
Speaker D:You are onto something there in the respect that there was a lot that you just have to navigate along the way and not.
Speaker D:They didn't cause issues for us, but there were sometimes just slightly awkward conversations you wouldn't normally have, like, hey, I'm starting to get a bit too fat for my leggings.
Speaker D:Can I buy some maternity leggings?
Speaker D:You know that it wasn't awkward for us, but they could be.
Speaker D:If you were someone who doesn't like asking for things or if you, you know, there could be a range of ways that that gets interpreted either way.
Speaker D:Lisa might have sat there and gone, oh, God, I haven't thought about a maternity stuff yet.
Speaker D:I mean, for me, I did.
Speaker D:I think I only bought a pair of maternity leggings and some support garments.
Speaker D:That's the only thing I needed because I'm a dress in flowy dresses anyway.
Speaker D:But there could have been lots of those little moments that just become awkward or there's a.
Speaker D:A mixed expectation around it or something.
Speaker D:And I think you're right in the respect that I wouldn't have been annoyed at your suggestion.
Speaker D:I should have spirulina.
Speaker D:Not that Lisa ever suggested that.
Speaker D:But if, if, if the mother had said, you need to have a celery smoothie every day or whatever, you know, that would just be part of the deal.
Speaker D:So I think you're right in the respect of that.
Speaker D:That could add a layer of just kind of clarity to something that could have areas of gray, I think.
Speaker C:And just to add on an.
Speaker C:Sarah and I've talked about this a lot.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:And it sort of leans Cass into your former question.
Speaker C:Sarah and I have said it's probably wise for people undertaking surrogacy to have a lot more counseling and therapy throughout because we were fortunate.
Speaker C:A Sarah is very direct.
Speaker C:Next steps.
Speaker C:And I am very people pleasing.
Speaker C:So, like, it all work.
Speaker C:And we've done lots of work on ourselves as individuals.
Speaker C:So, like, there was no but that.
Speaker D:People pleasing stuff could get really hard.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:You know, because you do in something like this, you do have to be quite direct about something.
Speaker D:So let's say, for instance, you did want me to have something spirulina.
Speaker D:Look at me stuck on my green smoothies.
Speaker D:You know, if you're a people pleaser, you wouldn't ask for that stuff.
Speaker D:And that could create a moment.
Speaker D:So it.
Speaker D:The.
Speaker D:The legal Kind of guidelines around, around the therapy and the, the therapy appointments were way too loose.
Speaker D:We only needed them at the very beginning and the very end.
Speaker D:And we really lucky, as Lisa was just saying that we both do a lot of work on ourselves and I already had a psychologist and I just, just dipped into them when I needed them.
Speaker D:But I think someone who hasn't done that work and who doesn't access mental health support could have found it difficult at times.
Speaker D:You need someone to help support you through something like this and I think it should be monthly therapy at a minimum.
Speaker C:Definitely.
Speaker C:And also part of the reason that we've written the book is a little bit to the advocates as well, to show what possibility is, but also a little bit of advocacy in there.
Speaker C:And I think some of the pieces are just so over regulated and ridiculous.
Speaker C:Like the fact that we still, Hugo is about to turn 16 months old and we still don't have a birth certificate or a Medicare card in our name and his name, blah, blah.
Speaker C:We could get into all the semantics around that and that when he was 13 months old, Sarah and I and Stephen had to do a Supreme Court hearing for me to actually say that, yes, I'd tried hard enough to have a baby.
Speaker C:I'm like, well, is your time for that not before the baby's born.
Speaker C:So being judged by a judge from a different country.
Speaker C:So there's things like that that I think definitely.
Speaker C:And also from a monetary, you know, financial support perspective, I think there's a lot that the industry can absolutely do to kind of get with the program.
Speaker C:Maybe in terms of the fertility piece and, or the surrogacy pace.
Speaker C:But at the other end of the spectrum, I think through Sarah, my experience and you know, recommendations, she goes really around like a crazy person.
Speaker B:He's not going to bed.
Speaker C:I think that, you know, there could be some stronger things.
Speaker C:And it probably just demonstrates how little thought has been or rigor has been given to it as a whole by the right people in terms of.
Speaker C:Because I think there could be, we think there could be more therapy and more support from all sorts of things.
Speaker C:I mean that's a whole different thing.
Speaker C:But I will say this as well.
Speaker C:The book, we really don't want to justify some people that are wanting to get pregnant or wanting to find out more about surrogacy.
Speaker C:Really the theme is the, you know, that's the true thread.
Speaker C:But we hope that it has so much more mass appeal for anyone who's going through anything that's, you know, adversely or anyone who needs Some hope or, you know, more than what we're talking about.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's really clear.
Speaker B:I would make that point too.
Speaker B:The book, I mean, it's a fascinating story to read.
Speaker B:There's so much in there, stuff that I didn't know about the surrogacy journey and just as just such a fascinating story, to be honest.
Speaker B:But through the whole thing, there are themes which are transferable to any other thing that you might be trying to do or achieve in life.
Speaker B:I thought that was really well done.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker D:Yeah, we really wanted it to be an exploration of hope and possibility.
Speaker D:So it came together beautifully.
Speaker B:It really did.
Speaker B:And the weaving together of both of your personal stories and then your combined story was really well done.
Speaker B:You touched on it really briefly and you don't need to go into all the details, but I think it's all in the book.
Speaker B:But this is another thing I didn't realize.
Speaker B:Your name's not on the birth certificate.
Speaker B:Explain this to me.
Speaker B:So, Sarah, your name goes on the birth certificate as the.
Speaker B:As the mother.
Speaker B:And is it your husband as the father?
Speaker D:My husband, yeah.
Speaker B:Despite the fact he's got nothing to do with any of it?
Speaker D:No.
Speaker D:I found that bit the strangest of all.
Speaker D:I mean, putting me as the person who carried the baby, I can kind of understand if the.
Speaker D:If the regulations and the laws haven't caught up.
Speaker D:I can understand the logic to that.
Speaker D:The baby came out of me, so I can understand why they might do that.
Speaker D:But I don't understand why my husband got listed.
Speaker D:If we weren't married, would he not have been listed?
Speaker D:Or if I was single, would it have listed Stephen or would it have listed no father?
Speaker D:Like, it's a very odd system.
Speaker D:It seems very, very stuck in the Dark Ages.
Speaker D:And not at all.
Speaker D:I even, you know, when he was born, I was like, can I at least register him?
Speaker D:I thought if it was at least Stephen's name on there, then we might be able to get the surname in there so that there's that continuity there.
Speaker D:But it was just.
Speaker D:Yeah, it sounds very, very strange.
Speaker B:Very strange.
Speaker B:And so then you have to go through an adoption process, Lisa, to adopt your own child.
Speaker C:It's not actually.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:This is where it was so confusing.
Speaker C:We thought that that was it, but it wasn't actually.
Speaker C:It was similar.
Speaker C:It's getting a parentage order, essentially, to.
Speaker C:Yeah, transfer him from Sarah and David to Stephen and I.
Speaker C:Very laborious process.
Speaker D:And it is actually the same legal process that would happen if a family was, say, a couple was to have a child and they were to separate, then they would get a parentage order drawn up between the two parents.
Speaker D:That's what we, we went through that same court and the same system.
Speaker D:So the court that we were going through was the same court that was hearing cases of, you know, a family that had split up, which is, I think the, the.
Speaker D:And the reason that's significant is that court is looking after the child's best interest.
Speaker D:They're trying to hear from both sides, they're trying to make sure that whatever decision they make is going to be the safest and healthiest place for that child.
Speaker D:And there's a lot of work that goes into that if, if a couple is separating.
Speaker D:But for us, that rigor had already happened.
Speaker D:You know, we knew the family that he was going to.
Speaker D:There wasn't a question, but we still had to do a lot.
Speaker D:Like, it was a lot of court ordered therapy and paperwork and meetings and lawyers meetings and zoom appointments and finally court hearings to confirm again and again and again that we are not his parents.
Speaker D:They are his parents.
Speaker D:We do not want custody.
Speaker D:They have custody.
Speaker D:They have had custody since the moment he was born.
Speaker D:Like, just repeating the same info again and again.
Speaker D:Like it's a very clunky process.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Last thing, Lisa, you talk about being a very, very independent, self reliant, you know, not, yes, you live your life publicly, but you know, emotionally, like never really being one to ask for help.
Speaker B:You're a do it yourself kind of a person, clearly, probably from early experiences.
Speaker B:And you've probably done enough therapy to unpack all that.
Speaker C:Yeah, we can unpack that.
Speaker C:Another issues, father issues yet.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:But this is the ultimate asking for help.
Speaker B:This is the ultimate being vulnerable and asking for help.
Speaker C:I'm.
Speaker B:I'd love to know how you feel and this connection that you formed with Sarah now, like, how has this changed you as a person?
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, oh, so many ways, I think.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm.
Speaker C:And some people may be able to relate to this.
Speaker C:I am much more comfortable being the helper than asking for help.
Speaker C:And it's something that I've really had to do a lot of therapy on and learn to actually ask for help.
Speaker C:And you know, because sometimes we're not okay.
Speaker C:And we can't do it all on our own.
Speaker C:And despite.
Speaker C:And it's also hard because I put myself into a public space and I write books on, you know, living your best life.
Speaker C:So when things aren't my best, I, it's hard to reach out and sort of admit that I also have shortcomings and that I also need help, but I'm getting better at it.
Speaker C:And it's so much easier when you do it, because people want to help.
Speaker C:Really, they do.
Speaker C:That's the thing.
Speaker C:And so, you know, I've certainly practiced it more and more.
Speaker C:This was the ultimate outsource and the ultimate, you know, put your hand up for.
Speaker C:For help.
Speaker C:But I think, again, I wasn't ready four years prior.
Speaker C:I needed to really try a lot more things myself.
Speaker C:And also Stephen had to, you know, come to it at his own time as well.
Speaker C:And he was very protective of me, like, yes, I want you to carry your own baby, and, you know, all these things.
Speaker C:But by the time Sarah had sort of texted and said, oh, by the way, how's the IVF going?
Speaker C:I was in a crisis moment, helping other people in the floods in northern New South Wales and literally, you know, organizing helicopters and setting up evacuation centers and, you know, handing out food and saving cats from roofs.
Speaker C:Like, I was really in the guts of it all.
Speaker B:I remember that.
Speaker C:And I think that was actually the perfect time because when Sarah's text came through and said, well, how's the IBF going?
Speaker C:I was just like, oh, help me.
Speaker C:Like, I was just vulnerable and open, really open, I think.
Speaker C:And I was just like, not great.
Speaker C:Still want to be a surrogate on text.
Speaker C:I just got shobus as I said it, and.
Speaker C:And, you know, that was the best thing I could have ever done because I just let my walls down.
Speaker C:I was like, you know what?
Speaker C:I'm run out.
Speaker C:I cannot.
Speaker C:I just can't keep doing this on my own.
Speaker C:I need.
Speaker C:Need you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And it was really bizarre.
Speaker C:I think that I really believe a lot in serendipity and synchronicity, and Sarah just didn't really even hesitate, even though.
Speaker C:And despite having had, you know, the mesh in her stomach and the stitches and everything, her first response was really, let me go check this out and see what's possible.
Speaker C:Which I was in complete disbelief about.
Speaker C:But she did it.
Speaker C:And since that day, every single time, without exception, she has fronted out and showed up for me and, I hope, me for her.
Speaker C:And so our friendship has just deepened.
Speaker C:And, yeah, it's like I would trust Sarah with anything now.
Speaker C:And I hope she was the same about me.
Speaker C:And we're still.
Speaker C:I'm still happy to be vulnerable and ask her things and fess up more things more often now.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And she never judges me.
Speaker C:She's there and she's supports me.
Speaker C:And, yeah, so, so I would say around that, be unafraid to ask for help.
Speaker C:It's a lot less lonely when someone else is there beside you.
Speaker C:And conversely, if you can be the one to help and support someone else, then put your hand up because it is life changing and extraordinary.
Speaker C:What bonds develop and how much easier and more joyful things become when, as we've called the book, the Power of Two.
Speaker B:Is there anything you would add to that, Sarah?
Speaker D:I think Lisa has, yeah, summarized that beautifully.
Speaker D:And I think, you know, you don't have to show up for people quite as dramatically as I did.
Speaker D:You don't have to have a baby for someone.
Speaker D:But even just the smallest things, you know that when you just are walking and someone smiles at you, it puts a little pep in your step, saying, good morning.
Speaker D:My dad was always the type of person when we would go for a walk, he would say hello to everyone we walked past.
Speaker D:Is something generational like our, our people these days, we don't talk to each other.
Speaker D:We often heads down or heads in our phones.
Speaker D:But even just those small moments of interaction and connection are so important.
Speaker D:And the way I try to live my life and model for my kids is that doing for others is expensive for yourself.
Speaker D:And I have the most ridiculously blessed life.
Speaker D:And I think that is because I, I put out so much and I get blessed that back a thousand times over.
Speaker D:You know, I've, I've done this thing for Lisa which was pretty major, but I continue to just be blessed in so many different ways.
Speaker D:I've got beautiful, healthy kids and a great career and all of these amazing things in my life.
Speaker D:And I think it's because I get to bask in that energy of what it feels like to connect with people and to be vulnerable and to experience pain and suffering with people and to be in the trenches with them and help them find a way through that.
Speaker D:Like, that's what life is all about, is to, to get stuck in with other people and to get to the other side.
Speaker D:And you have to have those really deep, difficult moments so that you can really appreciate the incredible highs on the other side.
Speaker D:So, you know, this whole experience with Lisa has been incredible because at the end of it, we got the highest of highs.
Speaker D:Like, I don't know, there'll be many moments in life that can surpass that.
Speaker D:That moment when Hugo was born and we all heard him squeal and you're just like, wow, what an experience to be part of.
Speaker B:Y.
Speaker D:It was incredible.
Speaker B:Well, it is an extraordinary story.
Speaker B:Thank you both for sharing it also just so courageously and vulnerably.
Speaker A:The book is amazing.
Speaker B:It's a credit to you both and the whole story is obviously just wonderful.
Speaker B:So congratulations Lisa on beautiful Hugo, both of you and thank you for being here.
Speaker D:Oh thank you for having us.
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