Episode 2
How You Can Be Powerful AND Likeable with Dr Kate Mason
Dr. Kate Mason unpacks the false dichotomy that suggests women must choose between being liked and being respected, and explains how this mindset leads to self-doubt and diminished confidence. Kate shares practical strategies for overcoming common communication pitfalls women fall into, such as over-apologising and minimising their contributions. This episode is a must-listen for any woman looking to assert herself confidently while still being true to her authentic self.
Takeaways:
- Women often prioritise being liked over being respected because they're conditioned to believe they must choose one or the other.
- The idea that likability and authority are mutually exclusive is a misconception that needs to be challenged.
- Striving for connection and presence is a more effective strategy than trying to be confident.
- Presenting as calm is a great way to demonstrate leadership and executive presence
- Over-preparing can undermine confidence and authenticity; practising a lighter touch approach is often more effective.
Connect with Dr Kate Mason
Book: Powerfully Likeable out on 9 September 2025
Beyond Confident is an online, small group coaching program that helps you to overcome self-doubt and imposter syndrome and cultivate unshakeable self-confidence.
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www.cassdunn.com/beyond-confident
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Transcript
This is Crappy to Happy and I am your host, Cass Dunn.
Speaker A:I'm a clinical and coaching psychologist and mindfulness meditation teacher and of course, author of the Crappy to Happy books.
Speaker A:In this show, I bring you conversations with interesting, inspiring, intelligent people who are experts in their field and who have something of value to share that will help you feel less crappy and more happy.
Speaker B:Foreign.
Speaker A:Doctor Kate Mason is an executive communication coach, a world champion debater, and she has coached thousands of women, from teenage girls to C suite leaders on how to use their voice without losing themselves.
Speaker A:She works with teams from Google, Netflix, Microsoft, Uber, very impressive list, and many more.
Speaker A:And she has written a book called Powerfully A Woman's Guide to Effective Communication.
Speaker A:I'm gonna straight off the bat, highly recommend that every woman go get a copy of this book.
Speaker A:It is a smart, funny and practical guide for what happens when women try to speak up in a world that keeps telling them no.
Speaker A:Dr. Kate Mason, welcome to the Crappy to Happy podcast.
Speaker B:Thanks so much for having me, Cass.
Speaker A:Kate, I remember a long time ago somebody said ask, if you ask somebody whether it's more important to them to be respected or to be liked, they will usually tell you.
Speaker A:If they give it some thought, they will usually say, no, no, no, it's more important for me to be respected.
Speaker A:I think that's more important.
Speaker A:But then if you ask them to look at all of their behaviors, like what they've been doing and the decisions that they've been making and how they've been managing conversations, usually you will find that their priority has been in action, has been more focused on being liked.
Speaker A:Which is why when I saw you had written this book about this kind of likability versus respect almost, I was so keen to talk to you about it.
Speaker A:So are people, women, prioritizing being liked over being respected?
Speaker B:It's so funny, isn't it?
Speaker B:I've seen the same comment, and I think it was actually Adam Grant who tweeted something about this semi recently.
Speaker B:Yeah, about this dichotomy, or binary, if you like, between respect and likability.
Speaker B:And part of the work that I try to do is to say this isn't a binary.
Speaker B:There are not limited options here.
Speaker B:You know, at the leadership buffet.
Speaker B:I think for many of us and many women, we feel like, oh, I'm only allowed to pick one.
Speaker B:I'm only allowed to pick, for example, being authoritative.
Speaker B:And that means I must not have any friends or be likable or anything else.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And similarly, we think, well, I can't be Powerful if I want to be nice.
Speaker B:So I better just be nice and have friends and be liked in the office and I'll leave power to someone else.
Speaker B:And so it's almost feels like there's a scarcity mindset even before we answer that question in fullness.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Which is we're only allowed to pick one at the.
Speaker B:At the beginning.
Speaker A:Yeah, that and you know, even when I have asked that question of people over the years, because I can tell you that it was probably closer to 20 years ago that I first heard that.
Speaker A:And often people will respond, their first response would be, well, both.
Speaker A:Like, I want.
Speaker A:I want both.
Speaker A:But okay, so if somebody believes that potentially it is a dichotomy if they are prioritized agreeableness, what kind of behaviors are you seeing?
Speaker A:Like, how does this play out in people's behaviors in the workplace, for example, if they have that idea in their head, like it's one or the other?
Speaker B:Yes, I think it's a great question.
Speaker B:So it's interesting that we code likability with agreeableness.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Likeability.
Speaker B:And where I like to push is really just people being happy to be in your orbit.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:You feel if you've got somebody in your orbit who's likable, chances are you smile when you realize you're catching up with them or you feel happy you've got a meeting with them that day.
Speaker B:It's not necessarily that they bend over backwards for you or are very subservient or agreeable.
Speaker B:It's just that you like being around them.
Speaker B:And for whatever reason, as women, we've decided to encode being likable with someone who says, yeah, sure, no worries, and has porous boundaries and, you know, is very demure and accepting of things.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:As distinct from someone who could just be likable.
Speaker B:So that's one thing I'll call out, which I'd love to get into.
Speaker B:But you ask about that.
Speaker B:What are the types of behaviors that I see?
Speaker B:Well, I see a lot of porous boundaries is one.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:I'm not sure when I'm going to hold a line on something or I'm going to say yes and then maybe regret it later.
Speaker B:I see a lot of over apologizing.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Apologizing for things that aren't your problem or aren't up to you to solve.
Speaker B:I see a lot of minimization.
Speaker B:It'll just take a sec or I'll pop by your desk or no worries.
Speaker B:If not, I see a lot of failure to own an accomplishment, you know, oh, yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I studied, you know, this sort of area where reality.
Speaker B:You've got a masters.
Speaker B:So there's certain patterns that I think we all have recognized or seen and at times strategically have employed.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:There's times where you don't want to be that guy, but.
Speaker B:But those are the behaviors that I. I do see enough that I realize, oh, there's some patterning here that to me is really interesting and.
Speaker B:And felt worthy of, you know, further investigation.
Speaker A:You've got women in the title, A Woman's Guide to Effective Communication.
Speaker A:Is this typically behavior of women?
Speaker A:I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, but typically this is quite a gendered issue.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:It's a great question, Cass.
Speaker B:I coach men and women, but I particularly, I suppose I have for the women I work with in particular, mainly because I resonate so much more with their own stories, because I've come through that and, and that.
Speaker B:So that is always a particular draw for me.
Speaker B:I do think there are men who struggle with some of these things, but I wanted to write the book through the lens of women, partly because it's what I know, and partly it's because where I saw those patterns be really obvious to me, and I thought that could be most helpful.
Speaker B:But you're absolutely right.
Speaker B:I think a man could read this book and learn a much.
Speaker B:It's just that the lens for me was really.
Speaker B:I think we all walk tightropes at work, but I think the gendered ones to me are really, really interesting.
Speaker A:You know, just as you were talking then and I was thinking about the.
Speaker A:The conditioning or the expectations that women have, you just rattled off a whole lot and we could all just tick the boxes.
Speaker A:When you soften your language and you just.
Speaker A:Well, I just think.
Speaker A:Or in my opinion, you know, not being direct with putting a point across.
Speaker A:There are so many examples, and then there is this expectation or this stereotype, I guess, about the way men communicate and the way men behave in the workplace.
Speaker A:And I'm even wondering, just as you were talking then, if there are men who even feel a little bit boxed in by that expectation, who might feel like they have to be very kind of forthright and direct and not warm and compassionate and soft and, you know, all of those qualities that we typically associate with women, if they almost feel like they have to live up to some other expectations, that's not true to them.
Speaker B:Agree more.
Speaker B:I couldn't agree more.
Speaker B:I mean, binaries hurt everybody.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because they're.
Speaker B:They're exclusionary and they demand certain things.
Speaker B:From us.
Speaker B:I think some people can take advantage of them and other people, as you say, feel super constrained by them.
Speaker B:And I have a lot of male clients who say things like I want to be authoritative but I don't want to mansplain, you know, or be accused of that or I want to be in charge, but I also want to be really compassionate and kind.
Speaker B:Like how do I, I don't necessarily have a masculine role model of someone doing that and how do I do it?
Speaker B:So I think you're right, self aware people are asking all of those questions and really hyper mindful like what am I saying and how am I leveraging my own strengths in these situations to, to get, to get what I want to motivate my team, to get people excited about whatever I'm selling.
Speaker B:You know, there's so many different contexts we use these sorts of things and I think it's right to be thoughtful about it.
Speaker A:So they're in the workplace and they're just taking a sec.
Speaker A:And all of these, the ways that they're prioritizing being likable and how that is minimizing and kind of softening and making themselves small.
Speaker A:What I was going to ask you about essentially is what is the relationship between this focusing on likability and confidence at work?
Speaker B:Oh, that's a great one.
Speaker B:So one of the things when you're focusing or sort of over rotating on likability like that is that you actually do your, yourself and your work a great disservice.
Speaker B:Because what you're saying to me if you say, Kate, this will just take two seconds, is I immediately think whatever you're going to tell me is not that important.
Speaker B:If it's just two seconds, you must be about to tell me, hey, the meeting's at 3:30, not 3.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And of course there are those sorts of updates and those are valid, but you're certainly not going to be sitting me down to walk me through this massive epiphany you've had because definitionally that's not going to be that sort of a meeting.
Speaker B:So suddenly if you think about being your manage or the person you're trying to ask for two seconds from, you've immediately told them in your language this is not important.
Speaker B:And by extension I don't see myself as worthy of having your time.
Speaker B:And what that, that's a devastating thing to do with just our language.
Speaker B:And you know, you've, you've managed people or been managed.
Speaker B:We've all been in these situations at some point in our careers, even if we've only had managers, right.
Speaker B:We're early career.
Speaker B:It's a devastating thing to essentially encode your langu many times a day or maybe many times even in the same meeting with I'm not worthy or my idea is not worthy.
Speaker B:To me that's like out of the gate.
Speaker B:What a terrible mistake that we are making.
Speaker B:So a lot of it is very, very subconscious.
Speaker B:We're not, we're not trying to do that.
Speaker B:What I call that or what I think about these patterns, I, I call them imposing syndrome.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:It's not, it's not an imposter syndrome.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's this fear of making an imposition on someone.
Speaker B:We fear that we're making an imposition of, of their resources.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:I can't ask for more budget.
Speaker B:I can't ask.
Speaker B:I couldn't possibly.
Speaker B:And we say things like, it'll just take two seconds or no worries.
Speaker B:If not was like, please, please, I'll just be so tiny as to not cause a worry.
Speaker B:So we, we shrinking down.
Speaker B:And I know it's a bit cliche to say, you know, take up space or all of those sorts of things you see on, you know, inspirational mugs, but, but essentially when we're not taking up space, the inferences, I think are quite serious.
Speaker B:And so I'm really interested at the level of language.
Speaker B:Are we accidentally undermining ourselves before we've even put our idea on the table?
Speaker B:Like, it takes guts to think up a thing and to want to tell someone about it.
Speaker B:And are we in doing that brave step, accidentally kind of stepping backwards in doing so.
Speaker B:And so you can see there's lots of ways that we can think about recasting those that would change in, you know, our confidence.
Speaker B:And as you say, what's the relationship with that?
Speaker B:I think the relationship is when you over focus or over rotate on likability, your own confidence does go down because at each point you're questioning, am I worthy?
Speaker B:Probably not.
Speaker B:That's what your language is saying to me.
Speaker A:And you know, I, I run a program around imposter syndrome, actually and self doubt.
Speaker A:And it's not about power poses and all of that kind of overt what you think confidence looks like.
Speaker A:It really is much more about that grounded kind of calm self assurance that comes from knowing your worth.
Speaker A:But I therefore speak to a lot of women and some men who, who genuinely don't feel worthy, they don't feel like they belong.
Speaker A:And therefore that does come out in their language.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:So I'm wondering if you Know, even if they change the way they speak, if they change the way they communicate, will that almost have the effect of bolstering their sense of I do belong?
Speaker B:It really does.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It really does, in my experience.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I have a chapter in the book, actually, called kill your confidence, which is the idea that the more we're told, oh, I need to work on my confidence or I need to fix my executive presence, we get in our own head about it, right?
Speaker B:And we think, does this work?
Speaker B:Is that working?
Speaker B:And I don't know about you, but I've never been in a situation where someone said, thanks so, so much for such a confident meeting.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Like, we.
Speaker B:We just don't think about it that way.
Speaker B:But what we do say thank you for are like, you think, thanks for listening.
Speaker B:Thanks for validating, thanks for being creative.
Speaker B:Thanks for having good ideas.
Speaker B:So a lot of it is really about how can I demonstrate?
Speaker B:Or one of the frames I use is, even if I'm very down on myself and wondering, am I even worthy of being here, or is this a good idea?
Speaker B:Or I'm.
Speaker B:I'm racked with a bit of doubt, how can I demonstrate that I am Safe Hands for this project?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:My manager or someone has thrown me a ball.
Speaker B:How can I let them know I think I can catch it?
Speaker B:And suddenly it's not about the optics and what I'm doing and how I'm sounding.
Speaker B:It's like, oh, okay, I'm going to show that I'm listening.
Speaker B:I'm going to show that I've got an idea.
Speaker B:I'm going to show that they shouldn't worry, because as a manager, that is what you're looking.
Speaker B:You're throwing things at people and hoping that they can catch them and hoping they don't drop them, Right?
Speaker C:That.
Speaker B:That's sort of at its very basic essence.
Speaker B:And so I find when I try to give people.
Speaker B:I mean, there's a number of frames I talk through, but one of them is Safe Hands.
Speaker B:And I think it's very actionable and very immediate.
Speaker B:Like, oh, okay, I can.
Speaker B:I can channel, to your point, that calm assuredness and actually immediately start acting on something tangible and visible, which I think helps people or gets them out of that sort of state of paralysis, which is, you know, oh, what am I doing?
Speaker B:And more into like, okay, well, what am I doing?
Speaker B:Like, let's look at the doing of it.
Speaker A:I love that even just the change in the inflection just change that whole sentence.
Speaker A:You're the communication expert.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:This is very Clear.
Speaker A:And I think some of these reframes are really important too.
Speaker A:And just shifting how you're thinking about something can just make all the difference.
Speaker A:One of the things, you say it in the book and it's obviously very obvious, but you know, people pleasing is such a, such a, just a classic demonstration of prioritizing likability, you know, like wanting people to like you and when you even people pleasing, if you reframe that.
Speaker A:I don't know what, whether this is relevant to what we're talking about, but I was talking to somebody just the other day about it's actually being really inauthentic.
Speaker A:Like you're actually making decisions based on what you think they want.
Speaker A:You haven't even bothered to ask them what they want by the way.
Speaker A:You don't even know that that's what they want.
Speaker A:And you're kind of manipulating yourself in order to get an outcome them like that's kind of shady if you think about it.
Speaker A:Like it's not actually a kind, you know, selfless thing to do and sometimes things like that just make light bulbs go off in people's minds.
Speaker A:And, and you with the, the imposing syndrome, you know, instead of imposter syndrome.
Speaker A:It's just a different way of thinking about something that can have lead to a much different outcome in terms of how you feel and then how you behave.
Speaker B:I completely agree with you on the inauthenticity part of people pleasing.
Speaker B:I think it sounds like a nice thing.
Speaker B:We want to people like.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:No one wants to necessarily go and displease people.
Speaker B:But it's actually if you think about it, if you're our manager and you have someone say, oh sure, I can get it to you by Friday, like yes, yes, I'll do it.
Speaker B:And then they don't.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:That's, that's profoundly disappointing and displeasing.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:I would much rather an honest assessment like, you know what, I've got seven other things on my plate.
Speaker B:Which do you want me to prioritize?
Speaker B:Or I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get it by Friday, but I can do it by Monday.
Speaker B:Like being honest and actually having that, that pause and working out what you can commit to honestly and transparently to me is a much more likable quality and certainly a more sustainable one when you're working with a long term relationship with someone.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because that's how you build trust if you're displeasing, you know, effectively by saying sure, sure, sure, I can do it, I can do it and then producing subpar work or, or not producing the work at all, that to me is going to erode trust quite quickly and build a narrative in that vein instead.
Speaker B:So that's the cautionary tale, I think.
Speaker A:Of people pleasing 100% and not to mention what that does to your own self confidence when you don't deliver and how that makes you feel.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:We're very good at self flagellating about it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You mentioned about the safe hands and when you were talking about that, that in my mind I was thinking that's really getting somebody to focus on what can I do?
Speaker A:And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, even people who are very confident in what they do, like I know I can do the job, they will often still struggle with confidence in terms of the interpersonal communication, like all those things you just said about how they come across or speaking up.
Speaker A:So is that what you see and why is that the case, do you think?
Speaker A:Or what can they do about it?
Speaker A:But you answer that however you want.
Speaker B:Yes, I do see it a lot.
Speaker B:And I think the liberating thing is I see it from people whose resumes you would think they couldn't possibly think that way.
Speaker B:These are VPs or SVPs or C Suite level folks who, you know, you would look at their LinkedIn profiles and think, wow, like they wouldn't have a minute of self doubt.
Speaker B:And yet they're the same ones I'm working with who are expressing all of these similar ideas that you might hear from a new graduate.
Speaker B:And so the liberating side of that is that we're all in the same boat to some extent.
Speaker B:The boat looks different, but we're, we're all in it.
Speaker B:But the other thing is it can be very paralyzing.
Speaker B:So the frame that I use for them, maybe it's helpful if I give you an example.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:The framework is for them is what was I hired for?
Speaker B:So the example is one of the women I coach is a senior VP of business development.
Speaker B:So that her job is very external.
Speaker B:She's, she's focused on getting new business for the company and she has a background in computer science.
Speaker B:She works in a tech company and she's often in a room full of engineers.
Speaker B:And she said to me, kate, it's awful because I'm always the least technical person in this room.
Speaker B:And I said, well, of course you are.
Speaker B:You know, you're, you're not hired to be the most technical person in the room.
Speaker B:You're literally hired to be doing something very Different.
Speaker B:And she said, oh, I always feel difficult because I get these very, very technical questions and I can't answer them.
Speaker B:And I'm like, but again, what were you hired for?
Speaker B:You were, you were hired to do this thing.
Speaker B:So oftentimes I think the mistake and I do think this might be a bit gendered.
Speaker B:I see this more in women than men.
Speaker B:We think, well, we have to know everything, right?
Speaker B:We have to be the most technical and the most business minded and you know, this and that.
Speaker B:And actually she only to fully, you know, excel in her lane.
Speaker B:And as for the other stuff, she's probably one, a lot more technical than I think she would admit.
Speaker B:But two, she can redirect that.
Speaker B:Say look, that's a great question for the VP of Eng, right?
Speaker B:Like this is, that's an engineering question from a business development perspective.
Speaker B:I would say A, B and C, right?
Speaker B:So you can reground in your own area of expertise.
Speaker B:But I think that holds a lot of people back.
Speaker B:Oh, I better not say something because I don't know enough.
Speaker B:And that's where we get those minimizers.
Speaker B:Oh, I'm not the expert expert but.
Speaker B:Or you've probably already thought of this part or I'm not an engineer but that's.
Speaker B:We get it, you're not, you don't need to put that in neon lights for us.
Speaker B:All you need to do is, you know, own your own lane of excellence.
Speaker B:And I think that sort of framing has been a real.
Speaker B:I've noticed a real shift in her over time that that confidence is oh wait, I don't have to know everything for everyone and I can just excel in, in what I'm doing.
Speaker B:And in fact she's very brilliant at what she does do.
Speaker B:So I don't know if that helps illustrate for people but I think there's the what was I hired for lens can be a really nice one to remember.
Speaker B:Few of us are hired to know every single thing about everything.
Speaker B:Even CEOs trust their advisors, right?
Speaker B:They trust their C suite to say what's going on in, you know, their respective areas.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And when people get into their, their heads, even if it's incorrect, like, but when they get this idea that they need to know everything or they get this idea that they're going to be put on the spot, they can't answer the question.
Speaker A:From my perspective, from a psychologist perspective and the work that I do like that just activates their whole nervous system and puts them into this like fight or flight freeze kind of during the headlights state.
Speaker A:Where they're not going to function at their best.
Speaker A:So it's so important not just to have.
Speaker A:And you and I can talk about some of those practical skills that they can, that they can do.
Speaker A:But first and foremost they gotta calm themselves down.
Speaker A:And so if that shift to I don't have to know everything, if that calms down that level of anxiety a little bit, then anything that they say is going to be said with more calm.
Speaker A:You know, just, just more, more of that sort of calm presence that we're talking about.
Speaker B:And, and you talk about confidence and sort of, I guess seniority, calm is encoded with that.
Speaker B:The second somebody is all frazzled and oh, I'm not really sure and which page was it?
Speaker B:And you know, flustered.
Speaker B:We don't think that that's C level behavior, rightly or wrongly.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:We just have a sense of that.
Speaker B:But we think about those C suite people.
Speaker B:They speak deliberately, slowly.
Speaker B:They are unruffled, they're not surprised.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:They take things in their stride.
Speaker B:They are demonstrating safe hands.
Speaker B:And in fact, when you have a C suite leader who is not doing that, it's really discombobulating and unsettling for the company.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Because they feel dysregulated by anxiety coming from on top.
Speaker B:So calm is the best way to get to confidence and also to look more senior than you are.
Speaker B:It's a light bulb moment, I think for a lot of people who are like, oh, is that all?
Speaker B:Like, that's actually what they mean by executive presence.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Is actually it's not wearing different clothes or using different vocabulary.
Speaker B:It's often just taking things in your stride.
Speaker A:That's so interesting and that you've just shortcutted.
Speaker A:I was going to ask you that very question because you know, we use these.
Speaker A:Executive presence is one you said before.
Speaker A:If you ask somebody to be more confident or if somebody says I just need to be more confident, number one, that's a felt experience.
Speaker A:And even when I ask people if you were more confident, what would you be doing?
Speaker A:A lot of people even struggle to articulate it.
Speaker A:They just sort of feel like they'd know when they, when they get there almost.
Speaker A:And in the workplace, if you are told that like in a performance review, you just need to, to be more confident.
Speaker A:Like that's.
Speaker A:So you point this out in your book.
Speaker A:It's so unhelpful because it's so meaningless, what do you suggest that you either share with somebody else or how an individual, how do they make that into something that's more tangible and actionable I.
Speaker B:Think, yeah, you're exactly right.
Speaker B:Be more confident is a little bit like saying be healthier.
Speaker B:It sounds like it's a good thing and we sort of know what that might look like, but for each of us it's going to be a really different path to how to do it and what it actually looks like.
Speaker B:So that's very normal and natural.
Speaker B:They shouldn't.
Speaker B:This is not a listicle exercise, you know, it's not, do these three things and everything will be fine.
Speaker B:So that's actually should be liberating, not depressing.
Speaker B:In my mind, the best way I can think about it is that because it's so inactionable and because it's this sort of amorphous thing, the best way to think about it is, is how can I be as connected and as present in all of my interactions as I can be?
Speaker B:So am I, am I being, am I listening?
Speaker B:Am I being of service here?
Speaker B:Am I being helpful?
Speaker B:Am I sharing an idea when it comes to me, am I responding when the meeting or the mood changes?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Can I be nimble?
Speaker B:These are excellent qualities that I think are really overlooked.
Speaker B:And instead we get so outside of our head thinking, is this confident?
Speaker B:Am I sitting confidently?
Speaker B:You know, does my hair look confident in this?
Speaker B:You know, sort of, and I'm being a bit facetious, but it's.
Speaker B:We have this sort of feeling about it when we can stop doing that and just get, forget the externality of it and think internally, how am I making this work?
Speaker B:I think it will really challenge people or I encourage people to experiment with it because you'll find that, I imagine you will find in my experience, a such a better and more robust conversation and that other person will leave with a higher sense of trust in you, which of course, you know, in the cycle of all things becomes confidence.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:They have confidence in you, you start feeling confidence in yourself becomes quite a virtuous or a generative cycle rather than a like, ugh.
Speaker B:And even, even if you don't have the right answer, that's fine.
Speaker B:If you're unruffled and calm and regulated in those moments, you can say, you know what, that's a really great question.
Speaker B:I'm going to take some time and can dig into it and I'll, I'll shoot you a note this afternoon, right.
Speaker B:Like it's, I'm not afraid.
Speaker B:I will look after it is kind of where we're headed for when we are that connected.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that that needs to be on a post it note.
Speaker A:Everybody needs that on a post it note on their desk right now.
Speaker A:How can I be more connected and present and of service?
Speaker A:How do I.
Speaker A:How do I contribute instead of.
Speaker A:Of how can I perform so that those people outside of me, what are they thinking of me?
Speaker A:How are they judging me?
Speaker A:How do I.
Speaker A:All of that, exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, that's the only thing we can control.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:You know, I can only leave a meeting knowing I've done all of those things and whatever anyone else thinks of me is up to them.
Speaker B:So there's a beautiful phrase.
Speaker B:One of my American, one of the women I coach says, she says, you can be the juiciest peach in the bowl, but some people just don't like peaches.
Speaker A:This is true too.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But you can control for your connectedness and presence.
Speaker B:So I find that a really.
Speaker B:A really nice frame of mind to be in when I'm in one of those situations.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You mentioned before about the likability and authority do not have to be mutually exclusive.
Speaker A:You've got this great exercise in the book.
Speaker A:Book where you encourage people to have a list of what are typically feminine qualities, a list of what we would typically consider to be masculine, and find a way to blend them.
Speaker A:Can you just talk a little bit about that and the impact that that exercise has on people?
Speaker A:Like when you.
Speaker A:When you ask people to.
Speaker A:To do that.
Speaker B:Oh, I'd love to.
Speaker B:So one of the things I think is tricky for some women communicators is that we have a little bit of a preconceived notion of what words apply to us.
Speaker B:So even things like power.
Speaker B:Some of the women I coach who I would think are very powerful, very senior, would say, oh, no, but I don't identify with being powerful at all.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Or I don't identify with being ambitious or like, I couldn't say that I was ambitious.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:There's sort of a socially acceptable or unacceptable tinge to some of those types of words.
Speaker B:And those are words that tend to be more masculine coded.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Even a word like negotiation, if you Google image search for that, it's usually men in suits shaking hands across a table.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:There's this sort of subconscious encoding we've done of those words, masculine.
Speaker B:And so some of us feel not privy to those words or on the outside of those words.
Speaker B:So one of the exercises, as you say that I do is to say, is there a way that you can identify with some of these words?
Speaker B:And it's not an exhaustive list I give, but I give some examples and words that might be traditionally encoded as feminine.
Speaker B:I don't mean that only women have them, but that we sort of socially believe are feminine.
Speaker B:So things like being empathetic, collaborative, communal.
Speaker B:And it becomes this beautiful exercise where I've had some gorgeous in workshops and when I work with people, examples.
Speaker B:So one of them, someone says, well, I'm ambitiously communal.
Speaker B:And I said, what do you mean by that?
Speaker B:She said well, I'm super ambitious.
Speaker B:I want my team to go really hard, really fast, like, like hit all of our metrics, but I want us to do it all together.
Speaker B:And that's how she thinks about her leadership style.
Speaker B:But she said I'd never given voice to that or I'd never felt like I could own the word ambitious because it felt like I was sort of sharp elbowed or competitive or out for myself.
Speaker B:And she said I don't really feel like that.
Speaker B:I really do generally genuinely feel like I'm lifting the team.
Speaker B:I gave the presentation at one point and I had someone come up to me afterwards and said, I think you are rationally warm.
Speaker A:And I was like, I could, I could live with that.
Speaker B:That was kind.
Speaker B:So there's an interesting, I think mix where we can blend these and.
Speaker B:And I guess what I'm saying is clearly two words don't necessarily encompass us all, but it's a little way to poke at that binary or dichotomy by bringing together things that might feel dissonant, a little bit like the title, powerfully likable.
Speaker B:You don't necessarily think that they could coexist comfortably.
Speaker B:But actually I think there's a lot more wiggle room that we, we than we give it credit for.
Speaker B:And one of the things I'm really excited by is when people start borrowing and getting rid of that rigidity.
Speaker B:We get these really generative and interesting combinations that feel like I see a lot of relief in people.
Speaker B:I see shoulders come down like, oh, that is.
Speaker B:That does speak to who I am and who I might feel like I am as a leader.
Speaker B:And I say leader, I don't care if you lead a team or not.
Speaker B:Just, just somebody who's showing up every day to give yourself that vocabulary is a lovely frame of mind to then approach all of your communication from.
Speaker A:It almost feels like it's a backdoor way in for women to feel like they can access or have the right to some of those qualities, I guess.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And it would be nice if going forward that they become much less like the definitions change or that we can see them as, as more inclusive and not this or that.
Speaker A:Yeah, as you were talking, I was thinking of your example of like all of the series and the Alexis, they're all female voices because they're assistants.
Speaker A:Like, it's.
Speaker A:When you start to see things like that, I mean, it can really make you mad, can't it?
Speaker A:Like, yes, just the way we are.
Speaker B:So programmed women don't make asks, they answer them.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:That's the cultural coding.
Speaker B: ort of secretarial, you know,: Speaker B:Right, that we, we.
Speaker B:We fix problems, we don't make them, we answer things, we don't ask them.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:There's no surprise to me that we subconsciously encode that and it's really related to that imposing syndrome.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:I better not be the one who's making the ask or being the problem or I, I instead must have the solution.
Speaker B:I talk a little bit in the book.
Speaker B:My hypothesis, I mean, there's many reasons and many cultural moments that I think have led us to that.
Speaker B:But one of my hypotheses is also.
Speaker C:We grow up around.
Speaker B:Many of us grow up around women who are like, have the nail file, the drink of water, the band aid, the packet of tissues, the.
Speaker B:We answer the problem, right?
Speaker B:This is, this is as.
Speaker B:As there's sort of a maternal encodedness to some of this as well.
Speaker B:And so it doesn't.
Speaker B:It's not a long bow to draw.
Speaker B:I think that when we enter a workplace context, we are sort of positioned or feel like self position to be answering rather than asking.
Speaker A:Yeah, I read that part of the book and I was thinking, yep, and.
Speaker A:And that's always.
Speaker A:The woman's got the handbag because she's carrying all the things.
Speaker A:She's carrying the band aid and the snack and the lip balm.
Speaker A:And then, and then the man or the child says, I don't want to carry a bag, but can you put this in yours?
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker B:I've taken to having a bag that only fits my things now.
Speaker A:Same, same.
Speaker A:And I'll still try to jam.
Speaker B:Small act of rebellion.
Speaker B:It's a small handbag.
Speaker A:Do you know that my teenage daughter, who's done that to me forever, like she's 19 now, she actually said to me the other day, oh, my God, Mum.
Speaker A:She was out with a boyfriend and she said, he said he didn't want to take a bag, but could I carry his stuff?
Speaker A:She said, oh my God.
Speaker A:So she, she felt she experienced it, she was on the other side of it.
Speaker A:And I said, you see, feminism, 101.
Speaker A:You're right, though.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:Like we, I mean, there's so much conditioning.
Speaker A:I didn't, I didn't feel like we even needed to go into it because it's just so clear.
Speaker A:All of that social, that gendered expectations of women, the.
Speaker A:All the jobs that are traditionally feminine are paid the least, all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:But clearly then that has this flow on effect when you get into workplaces and, and women start to move up or want to move up.
Speaker A:And all of this conditioning and expectation can feel very.
Speaker A:Can very much hold people back and not just undermine their own confidence, but how other people interact with them in the workplace as well.
Speaker A:Which leads me to.
Speaker A:Women often get talked over, they get interrupted, they get ideas stolen from them.
Speaker A:That is all terrible and it happens.
Speaker A:How do you suggest women in those very real situations where they've just been.
Speaker A:They've spoken up and they've been interrupted.
Speaker A:Do you have advice about how women best handle situations like that when they're confronted with it?
Speaker B:It's a great question and I'm glad we're touching on this as well, that there are both individual things you can do as a woman, but there are also bigger systemic things that are happening outside of us.
Speaker B:So by all means, my philosophy and the book is really not coming at like, you know, you're broken, you're the problem.
Speaker B:It's very much like we're all existing in the world and what are the tools that we can bring and what are the things that a workplace can do?
Speaker B:I think there are some simple ones.
Speaker B:And this is on the assumption that you're not in a hypertoxic environment that you need to leave.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:This is on the assumption that it's hopefully an accident that those things were happening.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Or an oversight rather than a malicious or, you know, really, really toxic sort of situation where it's happening on purpose.
Speaker B:One of them.
Speaker B:There's a theory that's come out of the Obama White House, which was called amplification, which is where someone else in the room can say, actually, you know, she wasn't finished talking.
Speaker B:So you can help amplify others, which actually helps engender a culture of people maybe doing that for you as well.
Speaker B:If it's happened for you, you've been talked over, for example, or an idea has been stolen and no one else is coming to your aid, which is, I think, happens most of the time.
Speaker B:You can say something like, that's really interesting.
Speaker B:That was what I was talking about last week when we did the this.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And just keep going.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Just keep flowing on.
Speaker B:The argument isn't I said it.
Speaker B:It's just making a reference to it and moving on.
Speaker B:So it's just like, I'm so glad we're putting this on the agenda.
Speaker B:This is something I've been working on two weeks ago, or blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:So you're planting that seed that there is some sort of social ownership over it.
Speaker B:It is difficult, and we don't want to make that the argument because it feels small and people can be put off by that, which is fair enough.
Speaker B:But making the point and then moving on to something gives you a bit of momentum and also makes the point at the same time.
Speaker B:So that can be one way to think about it.
Speaker A:The point that you make, though, about other people pointing it out and, you know, again, that's not something that an individual necessarily has control over.
Speaker A:But where, wherever possible, where workplaces and organizational culture is kind of on board with this and people are willing to speak up or to point out or highlight that that's what she said, then all of that is obviously going to be helpful and also create an environment where people feel, you know, back to that confidence thing.
Speaker A:People feel safer.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:You know, people feel more trust.
Speaker B:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker B:And to your point earlier about confidence, you look very confident if you can give someone else a compliment, right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So if you are just regulated and calm and you're like, cass, that was such an amazing job you did, or everybody, Cass did an amazing job when we went to that thing last week.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:If you're just calling that out, it's like, I am not afraid.
Speaker B:I am not worried anyone's coming for my job.
Speaker B:It can be a really.
Speaker B:It can be very encoded.
Speaker B:As a senior move to make, you can be the most junior person in the room.
Speaker B:But calling out a compliment like that is a really lovely way to say I'm unafraid.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:People who are worried about their job or position would not do that.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:And it's so interesting.
Speaker A:I've had a few conversations recently, Kate and I. I just actually published a podcast with Jennifer Moss, who is a workplace wellbeing strategist, and she talks about happiness at work.
Speaker A:And she raised this idea.
Speaker A:And it was in my mind as I was reading your book about spreading positive gossip, like speaking what you're saying, basically, but like talking nicely about people behind their back even if they're not there, which she was talking about it in terms of.
Speaker A:Of creating this culture of psychological safety and trust and that people Kind of assume if other people, if everybody gets talked about nicely behind the back, you're probably saying nice things about me too, so that makes me feel good.
Speaker A:Yes, but your take on that, it's a.
Speaker A:What you've just said about a similar thing that it also shows you like, it also presents you as being confident.
Speaker A:Like, that's a very nice side effect, like a nice bonus from doing that same behavior bonus.
Speaker B:And it has to be a genuine compliment.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Like people can smell when it's not right.
Speaker B:But you, yes, it's doing two lovely things at once.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:It's, it's, it's good karma.
Speaker B:You're happily giving kudos or, or credit to someone where it's due.
Speaker B:And by extension, as you say, that the side effect is that you're positioning yourself as pretty confident.
Speaker B:It's a very, very clever, I think, and strategic thing to do.
Speaker B:It's also just a really nice thing to do, of course.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And that's what we want more of, right?
Speaker A:Kindness.
Speaker A:God send all of this, this competition, and feeling afraid all of the time.
Speaker A:Kate, you're the communication expert.
Speaker A:And I was listening to, again, I don't remember where, a podcast or something a little while ago on the topic of communication at work.
Speaker A:And I heard this woman say something along the lines of that when men communicate, if they're presenting a point at work that they typically focus on content, whereas women typically, for whatever reason, they often are all about context.
Speaker A:And so therefore, when presenting a point, a woman.
Speaker A:This stuck with me because I could relate to it.
Speaker A:I thought, it sounds like me.
Speaker A:A woman will need to give you all the backstory and the context before getting to the point, which is the thing they want you to do or the decision that they want you to make or where they think we should go next.
Speaker A:And that, that can often, like, people tune out.
Speaker A:They haven't got time.
Speaker A:It's all waffle, blah, blah.
Speaker A:And she was sort of suggesting that women need to retrain themselves to lead with content.
Speaker A:Is that your experience?
Speaker A:Is that a thing?
Speaker A:And how do you suggest that women take that on board when they're considering how they communicate at work if they want to be perceived as being more authoritative?
Speaker B:It's a great question.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I see it a lot.
Speaker B:The metaphor I often use is that I think women, you know, those Where's Wally books where you've got to find Wally amongst, you know, this crazy landscape.
Speaker B:Women like to explain that whole double page, right.
Speaker B:And then tell you where Wally is.
Speaker B:And men usually start with, here's Wally.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And we say men.
Speaker B:I all.
Speaker B:I would probably layer that with more senior leaders tend to start with there's Wally.
Speaker B:Because we don't have time for all that context.
Speaker B:And if they want the context, they tend to double click on it.
Speaker B:And some people, depending on their communication style and preferences will get frustrated with like, why are you telling me the whole landscape when I just want to know where he is?
Speaker B:Right to just to continue the metaphor.
Speaker B:So thinking about what is the thing that I am identifying right.
Speaker B:What is the win here or what is the issue at hand?
Speaker B:When I worked at Google, they used to have shorthand.
Speaker B:I'm sure lots of companies had this but it was the TLDR the too long didn't read what's the tldr?
Speaker B:If I.
Speaker B:If I only had one sentence to describe this.
Speaker B:So it can be as simple as starting off your maybe it's your meeting update or your presentation.
Speaker B:I'm going to walk through the three options that we have that we're looking for a new vendor, right?
Speaker B:So that's my.
Speaker B:That's my headline.
Speaker B:The output of this is that by the end of the meeting, I'd like to have clarity on which one we're going to choose.
Speaker B:Something like that.
Speaker B:And then proceeding to walk through the three or even better, I've decided on a vendor and this meeting is to get approval of whatever.
Speaker B:And someone else says, did you have other vendors?
Speaker B:Yes, I'm happy to go into those.
Speaker B:But just being able to take a position and then signposting that for others again, people think it's safe hands she's done her homework.
Speaker B:But we don't always have to show every piece of knowledge we have about said product or project.
Speaker B:We can reliably know we've done that work and we're making a decision accordingly.
Speaker A:I think that's so helpful.
Speaker A:When I. I felt really sane when I heard that woman say that, I thought, oh yeah, my husband feels that every day.
Speaker A:And I notice in.
Speaker A:Even in podcast interviews, like I almost like have to tell the person probably doing it now, but I have to tell all the backstory about how I came to this question before I actually asked the question, because I'm a psychologist, not a journalist too, let's face it.
Speaker A:But you know, like I thought, oh yeah, that's what I'm doing.
Speaker A:I kind of feel like I have to give the backstory before I get to the actual point when I just want to know what's the bloody question here?
Speaker A:Or my husband just wants to know what's the point of this, what are you telling me?
Speaker B:And it's not, it's not a bad or a good thing.
Speaker B:It's it like that you'll meet contextual thinkers and you'll meet, you know, content thinkers if we can think about them as those.
Speaker B:So neither of them is wrong and both have their purpose.
Speaker B:Like there's going to be times where people do want that double click.
Speaker B:Like wait, tell me about the 10 vendors that you've spoken with to get to this one vendor.
Speaker B:Right, like that, that could be a very legitimate thing.
Speaker B:So I don't want people to feel like, oh my gosh, I'm doing the wrong thing here.
Speaker B:But it's really understanding as always, who's our audience and what do they need from us.
Speaker B:And if they're not a contextual person or if you've noticed they tend to err on that like headline decision outcome kind of framework, it might be helpful to recast what you're doing in a way that they understand.
Speaker B:So you're sort of code switching or translating a little bit in order to be more effective with that person.
Speaker B:So to me that's not inauthenticity, it's just taking what you did say and sort of recasting it or reordering it if you like.
Speaker A:Like yeah.
Speaker A:One other thing I wanted to pick up on, you talked about needing to know everything you talk about in the book when people lacking confidence they will often over prepare.
Speaker A:And you know, we see this with the people who experience self doubt, the perfectionism, the needing to have be prepared for every possible outcome.
Speaker A:Why is it better that we don't over prepare?
Speaker A:How can over preparing actually be doing ourselves a disservice?
Speaker B:Great question.
Speaker B:So, so at the outset I think it's important to say preparation is a good thing.
Speaker B:It's the over preparation which I'm really, I really want to push on.
Speaker B:So preparing is great.
Speaker B:Preparing, knowing who you're speaking to, understanding the background, doing your homework, all really important.
Speaker B:What I'm talking about is I meet a lot of senior leaders who say I used to do things like practice going through a presentation 10 plus times and I am now in a position where it's unsustainable.
Speaker B:I can't do that for every meeting I'm doing right or I can't do it to the level that I thought that I was successful at.
Speaker B:And what that means is that you've gotten yourself into this awkward dead end where you've prepared, you know, 10x maybe more than you needed to, or 5x more and it's not something you can continue to do.
Speaker B:So starting off earlier with a lighter preparation is something I'm very big on.
Speaker B:Why is it bad?
Speaker B:Well, one, it takes a lot of time.
Speaker B:So when we're trying to think about being efficient and effective with our work and our time over, preparing really bogs us down and slows us down.
Speaker B:But more importantly even than that is that I think it can take you out of being that present and connected person.
Speaker B:If you've had this preconceived, prepared notion of here's my script, I'm going to stick to it perfectly.
Speaker B:What if they veer away?
Speaker B:What if you're required to be a little bit nimble?
Speaker B:What if the problem changes as you're speaking?
Speaker B:Suddenly you've anchored yourself to this script or these ideas and it can be really hard or challenging for folks to drop them and move accordingly.
Speaker B:And so I think it can really mire us in either unhelpful points in that conversation or it can make us just lose our focus and be less able to respond creatively and with our whole brain.
Speaker B:I also find sometimes when people have studied something so well and they know their verbatim script, they're more prone to stumble because they're like, oh, I can't remember the exact turn of phrase that I used.
Speaker B:Or wait, I had a better way of saying that in my practice and, and now it's lacking and now I've, you know, you can see the confidence sort of drain out of them real time.
Speaker B:So never practicing verbatim is something that I really encourage.
Speaker B:So don't do it word for word but also just run through it as concepts and know the direction of where you're headed and then leave it be.
Speaker B:Trust that you will be able to pick that up and go with it.
Speaker B:I give a lot of strategies for like a lighter touch preparation framework.
Speaker B:And that's really to say most of us can rely on a lot of innate knowledge and ability in the moment, but we just need to kind of get ourselves there slowly.
Speaker B:So, so by all means don't do a 180.
Speaker B:If you've practiced something 10x times, don't just never practice it again, but maybe practice it eight times and then six times and then just wean yourself off a little bit such that you're growing the trust in yourself, I think that you are able to do it.
Speaker A:Yeah, because you know, in my experience too, you know, the people who over prepare, who do prepare 10 times to do the presentation, then come to believe that doing A good job requires 10 times.
Speaker A:And so then if they are in a position where they can't do 10 times, they immediately the default thought is that it's not going to be good because I haven't had my 10 times.
Speaker A:It leads to this perpetuating this over functioning, which just causes burnout.
Speaker A:Eventually.
Speaker B:Yes, it really does.
Speaker C:And you're right.
Speaker B:We get fixated on like if it's not X, then I'm a failure or then I'm going to be bad.
Speaker B:And it might be that the first few times you do it, less is not as good as what you were doing, but that's maybe also what your job requires of you.
Speaker B:Now maybe you've got eight of those presentations every two days.
Speaker B:So it's about finding a comfort level with it and trusting that you have a lot of baseline knowledge that can, you can bring to the fore.
Speaker A:You were a world champion debater, Kate.
Speaker A:You have a lot of debating stories.
Speaker A:I'm so impressed by the way, because that was.
Speaker A:Would terrify me.
Speaker A:Debating would terrify me.
Speaker A:But you've got some great stories about what you learned from debating.
Speaker A:Like what did you learn from your debating experience that has served you well in how you communicate in big important kind of jobs in corporations?
Speaker A:Like what are the things that you think were the really good lessons that you took from debating?
Speaker B:What didn't I learn, Cass?
Speaker B:I think it looked like my, my education in so many things.
Speaker B:Things I think I learned to not be afraid.
Speaker B:Because when you get up and you feel naked and you don't have anything to say and you have to make it up on the spot and you can do it and you sit down and realize the world didn't collapse, that's a very powerful thing.
Speaker B:I think I learned that I have a lot of different strings in my bow when it comes to communicating.
Speaker B:You know, part of what I used to do a lot when I was much younger was beginning be 100% aggressive the whole time and realizing that that actually wasn't very effective to be one mode of anything all the time.
Speaker B:That communication naturally has ebbs and flows and drama in it.
Speaker B:You know, we can get excited or angry about some things and then we can be more pulled back in other times.
Speaker B:So that was like understanding that pattern and nuance of communication was really fascinating.
Speaker B:It also served me or taught me a ton about logic and the way if you have to present in order a list of persuasive arguments about something, how and why would you order it that way?
Speaker B:And what's the strategy behind that?
Speaker B:You do that enough times in enough different topics, and you start seeing a lot of patterns.
Speaker B:For me, I did.
Speaker B:And realizing the innate sort of structures that are behind most things.
Speaker B:So you hear then a politician or a CEO or someone say something, you, you have a framework by which to judge how robust that argument is or where to poke it, to make it fall over, essentially.
Speaker B:So it, I mean, it's really taught me everything and it's been.
Speaker B:I actually believe everyone should do it just because I feel it was such a valuable part of my education as, as both a human, but also as.
Speaker B:As someone who likes to think and play with ideas.
Speaker B:I think it's.
Speaker B:It's a real playground.
Speaker A:I love your debating stories throughout the book.
Speaker A:And just that idea.
Speaker A:I think you're right.
Speaker A:That idea from an early age, from a young age, being.
Speaker A:Having to be on the spot and having to face.
Speaker A:You're not going to get it right.
Speaker A:I think especially for girls who are very much going for the gold stars and going for the study hard and get the A plus.
Speaker A:I think that's a very different kind of model, a very different training ground, isn't it?
Speaker A:To just be you.
Speaker A:You just gotta wing it and you just gotta.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And you're not always going to get it right.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That's okay too.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:You fall and you fail and you flail and then you have these wonderful moments where it does come together and you think, wow, I did that.
Speaker B:So there's.
Speaker B:There's joy and satisfaction and excitement as well.
Speaker B:And it's maybe as a kid, the only place it's cool to be smart.
Speaker B:Which was kind of a joy.
Speaker B:If you're a bit of a nerdy kid, it's.
Speaker B:You feel very seen and very excited to be like, oh, finally I get to take the floor for five minutes and tell you my opinions.
Speaker B:Was quite a joyous thing.
Speaker A:Kate, you've written the whole book, obviously, but I guess just to wrap up if for women who struggle with their communication at work and they struggle with confidence, like, you know, what's the takeaway that you would want them to have?
Speaker A:What's the one message that you would want to share?
Speaker A:Oh, gosh, big question.
Speaker B:Sorry, huge question.
Speaker B:But it's a great one.
Speaker B:It's very juicy.
Speaker B:I think the, the dual messages, maybe if I can be cheeky.
Speaker B:And they.
Speaker B:You're probably doing a much better job than you already think is part of it.
Speaker B:And the second one is just be kind.
Speaker B:Like this book, I've really positioned it as a.
Speaker B:An invitation rather than a prescription.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:This is a invitation to think about where you are, how you're currently showing up, where you peak and where you maybe have challenges.
Speaker B:And it's a really an invitation to say if some of this resonates with you, give it a try.
Speaker B:Bring it into your world, see what works, see what doesn't.
Speaker B:You know, roll around in it a little bit.
Speaker B:And if it's useful and if it resonates and sticks, by all means, carry on.
Speaker B:But I think be kind to yourself in that process because I don't think any of us need another voice telling us what to do or not what to do.
Speaker B:This is very much more of a. I like to think of it as a friendly guide that might be useful in certain times or in difficult conversations.
Speaker B:And that's where it should be, there as a friendly place on your bookshelf.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Kate, this has been so much fun.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker B:I could have chatted for hours.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:The problem is that I really could.
Speaker A:Crappy to Happy is created and produced by me, Cass Dunn.
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Speaker A:Thank you so much for being here and I cannot wait to catch you next week for another fabulous episode of Crappy the Happy Sa.
